Curse

Evilsod · Dec 04, 2006, 12:57 AM // 00:57

As i'm sure many of you have noticed half the missions and primary quests of Nightfall require you to have a particular hero with you.

My question is, why?

Throughout half the game Kormir is trailing around with you standing around while you fight groups looking dumb. Why can't they just make the required hero do that? Taking along 2 of the same hero makes 1 of them the name of there character skin. Can't be that hard to just make the required hero wander around doing nothing while a 'Sunspear Warrior' or something joins you in place of Koss.

All this dependency does is break up team play or just ruin perfectly well adjusted hero sets or even just screw the mission up completely by forcing you to take an underleveled hero.
Not 30 minutes ago i had to take a lvl4 Koss with me on a quest to Venta... now i have the honour of taking a lvl6 Koss with me through Venta Cemetery, i'm sure he'll be a valuable asset to the team.... or not. Or having to deny an 8th guildy or pug a place because some stupid hero 'needs' it. Or screwing up your hero build because you need to drop 1 of them for someone you don't really need.

So can we please do something about this, get rid of the requirements and make them tag along and do nothing.

Curse You · Dec 04, 2006, 01:26 AM // 01:26

I did Venta Cemetery with a level 4 Koss on my Elementalist with henchmen. Does that make me special? No, it means I was able to compensate for having a weak party member, like any PUG groups should.

Requiring to have a certain hero is usually a way of filtering out the people who either can't compensate, or aren't supposed to be there (If you take Master of Whispers, Pogahn Passage will be made a mission, but you won't be able to do it without having Magrid the Sly in your party).

darkdawn · Dec 04, 2006, 02:09 AM // 02:09

/signed

i like playing with an 8 human party, while with this the maximum party size is decreased to 7...

Thallandor · Dec 04, 2006, 02:11 AM // 02:11

I agree with the OP, having the Hero req for certain mission is annoying even though its still manageable. I suppose like many things that pertains to the PvE, its required as part of the story for Hero involvement so as to speak.

Evilsod · Dec 04, 2006, 02:14 AM // 02:14

Oh come on like it actually matters if you do them both. You end up doing them sooner or later anyway and (if i recall) you can do the other half of the mission storyline by joining someone with the right hero anyway.

I wouldn't join a PUG to do a high level mission that had a lvl4 Warrior in it. Why should i be forced to make a team with 1? 1 that has low AL since its scaled on level and no decent items or runes because i don't want to use them.

Kai Nui · Dec 04, 2006, 02:33 AM // 02:33

Heroes can be leveled up, but I do agree making heroes requirements to go in is a waste when I'd rather have a person. Especially in that last one where you need Morgahn... ugh. I'm just glad I've beaten the game already.

Crom The Pale · Dec 04, 2006, 04:16 AM // 04:16

I think there may be two sides to this.

One is that forcing us to take a hero leaves out room for a live person, the other is that if they make the hero just a non controlable npc then we have other issues.

I just went back and helped a friend with the first faction mission you get in the forien district. Mehnlo would not stop healing the minions after the first battle and never got around to opening the door. Once we killed off all the minions he was stuck andwould not move to the door.

If the heros are needed in the missions for the storyline then having them controlable may be best, I'd hate to get to the end of a mission and fail because i could not get the Hero close enough to trigger the final cut scene.

Carth` · Dec 04, 2006, 05:22 AM // 05:22

Yeah I agree. It's worst on a non-NF character, where a mission requires your level 8 Dunkoro in a level 20 area.

Rod Adams · Dec 04, 2006, 05:30 AM // 05:30

/signed

I find it really frustrating to bring a foreign char over, get a L6 Dunkoro, and then, before much of anything else, you're expected to take him with you on the Consulate Docks mission... which is full of L20+ monsters. Dunko won't be healing anything but himself for the duration of the mission....

Curse You · Dec 04, 2006, 05:32 AM // 05:32

Looking at people's complaints, I think it would be better to just up the level of the heroes when you get them on a non-Elonian character.

Rod Adams · Dec 04, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

I've suggested before that I think heroes' levels should be permanently tied to that of the character. Thus, all your heroes level when you do.
Bring an L20 over from Tyria, and all the heroes you get are at L20 as well.

kang · Dec 04, 2006, 05:46 AM // 05:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rod Adams

/signed

I find it really frustrating to bring a foreign char over, get a L6 Dunkoro, and then, before much of anything else, you're expected to take him with you on the Consulate Docks mission... which is full of L20+ monsters. Dunko won't be healing anything but himself for the duration of the mission....

sunspear battle cry gives him lvl 20 health, problem solved.

I dont really care considering that I used koss and Dunkaroo (what I call him, australian joke) for most of the game anyway.

Hardest part was when I had to choose to save the gardens or the village, when my dervish hero was lvl 8 with my preorder sythe and default dervish skills.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Dec 04, 2006, 05:50 AM // 05:50

Again with the story hating.

Last time it was "We hate gates because they dont let us skip the story"

This time its "We hate heroes actually being part of the story"

Here's an idea, why dont we just get rid of the story like all the PVP people wanted back in Prophecies and just make this a PVP only game.

Would that make you happy?

Carth` · Dec 04, 2006, 06:21 AM // 06:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Last time it was "We hate gates because they dont let us skip the story"

That wasn't the reason people hated gates.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

This time its "We hate heroes actually being part of the story"

That isn't the reason people hate heroes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Here's an idea, why dont we just get rid of the story like all the PVP people wanted back in Prophecies and just make this a PVP only game.

Would that make you happy?

No, stop trying to stir trouble. This has nothing to do with PvP.

Arcanis the Omnipotent · Dec 04, 2006, 07:02 AM // 07:02

Moron boy, I was trying to make a point

Every time that Anet puts something in the game that forces the players to actually do something to move the story along, they complain.

Gates limited movement for players who had already completed the game once on a different character, forcing them to replay the story again on all their characters. They were not allowed to run past mission areas as they were in Prophecies. And so yes, this is why people hated gates.

People dislike the Heroes for the same reason. Quests and Missions require that you do a certain thing in order to get through to the next area. Forcing people through a certain standard, so that the story comes first rather than the player's wishes on how they proceede.

Removing these types of things would allow the player complete non-linear freedom in the story. But the story isnt non-linear. And so there must be some element in the game which forces you down a certain path.

OR you have games like Prophecies, where it is possible to run yourself from Lion's Arch to Sanctum Cay. Thus completely bypassing a good 40% of the game.

And I'm not stirring up trouble, you're trying to make it look that way.

PVP people in the Prophecies era used to call for the next chapter to have no PVE side at all. They claimed the game was meant to be only PVP and should be brought back to that.

Each time someone raises a stink about how they hate the way PVE is set up to make them actually play the story, is one more comment that Anet will consider when they decide whether or not to even make another story.

samifly · Dec 04, 2006, 07:44 AM // 07:44

/signed

I hate having what is essentially a 7 party limit in missions. having a controllable npc is nice, however, if your going to require us to have heros, at least make it 9 person limit in missions. Hero leveling is another thing I hate, but that is for another discussion

TheBaron82 · Dec 04, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arcanis the Omnipotent

Moron boy, I was trying to make a point

Every time that Anet puts something in the game that forces the players to actually do something to move the story along, they complain.

Gates limited movement for players who had already completed the game once on a different character, forcing them to replay the story again on all their characters. They were not allowed to run past mission areas as they were in Prophecies. And so yes, this is why people hated gates.

People dislike the Heroes for the same reason. Quests and Missions require that you do a certain thing in order to get through to the next area. Forcing people through a certain standard, so that the story comes first rather than the player's wishes on how they proceede.

Removing these types of things would allow the player complete non-linear freedom in the story. But the story isnt non-linear. And so there must be some element in the game which forces you down a certain path.

OR you have games like Prophecies, where it is possible to run yourself from Lion's Arch to Sanctum Cay. Thus completely bypassing a good 40% of the game.

And I'm not stirring up trouble, you're trying to make it look that way.

PVP people in the Prophecies era used to call for the next chapter to have no PVE side at all. They claimed the game was meant to be only PVP and should be brought back to that.

Each time someone raises a stink about how they hate the way PVE is set up to make them actually play the story, is one more comment that Anet will consider when they decide whether or not to even make another story.

Yup, I agree with you. Each chapter have different thing, so just think of it as a challenge other than complain. I dont like having the hero requirement either, but it's not a big deal for Anet to go back and change everything. I rather have them working on bugs,lags, update content and the next campaign than wasting time on this.

freekedoutfish · Dec 04, 2006, 09:42 AM // 09:42

Question;

Im curious as to whether youve completed the game?

I have and from what I can remember, your statement saying "half the missions and primary quests of Nightfall require you to have a particular hero with you" is incorrect.

Out of 20 missions, I think its only about 1/4 that need a required Hero. Your only talking about 5 or 6.

And out of all the dozens of quests, most certainly do not require a Hero. I think its only the first few that do.

Nightfall contains alot of material, and even more now that they added the elite stuff.

There is more then enough leeway in the game to allow you go play in 100% human parties if you choose to do so.

As for this idea of not being able to use certain professions because you have a Hero taking up a slot. Thats a bit extreme.

If your forced to use Koss, you can still take a second warrior.
If your forced to use the master of whispers, you can take an SS or an MM still.
If your forced to use the ranger, you can still use a second ranger.
If your forced to take Dunkuro, then you can still take another Monk.

Im not seeing how anyone is disadvantaged or being forced to not use a profession.

I think thats more down to the mentality of the person, or people in the party.

If your the kind of person who gets very uptight, and stuck-up about having a pre-set party with the builds you want and the professions you want, so that you can play the way you want then thats your choice.

In which case, I can understand your frustration.

But thats not how I play.

I like to vary my parties and try other professions out. I dont have an issue about whether a slots already been taken up by a warrior or a monk or a ranger.

And again, there is more then enough material for you to play later missions or quests with 7 Guildies or 7 mates.

"Forcing you to take an underleveled hero"

Then level them up.

Anet are trying their best to help you do that, by making you use them and making you lvl them up, by requiring you to use them.

I did that with mine and it wasnt a huge problem. Everytime I got a new hero, I had them lvld up to lvl20 in about a day or two.

If you choose not to lvl your heroes, then its no ones fault but your own.

Make the required Hero an NPC

That would just detract from the story-line and your connection to the Hero you take with you.

Do you want every mission or quest, where you need a certain Hero, to contain an NPC?

Everyone mission or quest would then have a line saying:

"If .... dies, mission/quest fails."

You could be watching the NPC allllll the time.

Considering how many times a Hero or Hench can die, it would render missions and quests ALOT harder and frustrating.

We all know how frustrating NPCs are.

But anyway, my view on why Heroes are good;

I cant really see the issue with having requirements on you to use Heroes.

I played through the entire game (mostly with heros and henches I admit), and I didnt notice any disadvantage or annoyance at having to do so.

I actually like the idea.

It helps keep the story-line going and it gives this feeling of travelling with your heroes.

You cant deny that the story-line is 10 times better then that of Factions, and it wouldnt be as good without the Heroes and the requirement to use them.

It makes it feel more indepth and like your part of that world.

If they stopped forcing us to use Heroes in the first few parts of the game, then no one would use them.

You would come to a point in the game, and think "maybe its about time I used Koss" and find thats hes only lvl6 and utterly useless.

THEN you would have to grind to lvl up him. As you mentioned, you dont want to use a low lvl Hero do you.

Its also a learning curve.

Heroes are a new thing and they obviously want us to become familiar with them. And as with most new technology, we have to be forced to use it or we wont.

If they use them in future campaigns, they might not force us to use them like they do in NF, because we'll know how to by then.

As for the "picking Heroes" system, or what ever name you want to give it.

I like the idea having to choose which Hero to aquire instead of another.

It changes the story line slightly and adds variety to it. Something neither previous campaign does.

(Obviously by the end you get the other Heroes anyway and play the missions you missed, so it does no harm the long run.)

But as I mentioned. Its not "half" of the game which your forced to use them. Its only about the first quarter they do that. And quite understandably, in order to make you familiar with Heroes and to feel comfortable using them.

You'l have more then enough time in later missions and quests to just work with humans.

ramma77 · Dec 04, 2006, 10:12 AM // 10:12

Do you know how long it takes to get a level 4 koss to level 15?

took me about 15 minutes 2 scrolls and a few hunts east out of yohlon haven.

explodemyheart · Dec 04, 2006, 10:38 AM // 10:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by freekedoutfish

Question;

Im curious as to whether youve completed the game?

I have and from what I can remember, your statement saying "half the missions and primary quests of Nightfall require you to have a particular hero with you" is incorrect.

Out of 20 missions, I think its only about 1/4 that need a required Hero. Your only talking about 5 or 6.

I question whether you actually paid attention throughout your trek across Nightfall.

Each and every mission requires a certain hero, save for Tihark Orchard, Dasha Vestibule (they just give you Goren as an ally to keep alive), Gate of Madness and Abaddon's Gate. That's 16/20 missions that require you to bring a certain hero.

Chahbek Village - Koss
Jokanur Diggings - Melonni
Blacktide Den - Tahlkora
Consulate Docks - Dunkoro
Venta Cemetery - Koss
Kodonur Crossroads - Zhed Shadowhoof
Rilohn Refuge - Master of Whispers
Pogahn Passage - Margrid the Sly
Moddok Crevice - Dunkoro
Tihark Orchard - Solo
Dzagonur Bastion - Master of Whispers
Dasha Vestibule - None
Grand Court of Sebelkeh - Tahlkora
Jennur's Horde - Koss
Nundu Bay - Melonni
Gate of Desolation - Zhed Shadowhoof
Ruins of Morah - General Morgahn
Gate of Pain - Dunkoro
Gate of Madness - None
Abaddon's Gate - None